Ciro Nogueira: There seems to be an opposition member in Planalto – 06/15/2023 – Power

Senator Ciro Nogueira (PI), president of the PP and former minister of Jair Bolsonaro (PL), recognizes that part of the party wants to integrate the support base of the Lula government (PT). He claims, however, to be a minority in the acronym.

Despite part of the party articulating to occupy positions in the current management, the parliamentarian defends in an interview with Sheet for the PP to remain in opposition.

Ciro also reports that members of the Lula government sought him out to find out if he would like to keep nominees in positions. He says he rejected the proposal.

The senator also criticizes Lula’s political articulation in Congress and classifies it as “disastrous”. “It even looks like there’s a member of the opposition there at the Planalto Palace.”

The senator also assesses whether it would be an injustice on the part of the TSE (Superior Electoral Court) to make Bolsonaro ineligible and points to the governor of São Paulo, Tarcísio de Freitas (Republicans), as a potential presidential candidate.

We have followed the articulations of members of the PP in search of spaces in the Lula government. Will the PP join the base? If it’s up to me, and I think I have a certain amount of influence in the party, under no circumstances. We will remain as an opposition party. And I feel that, in addition to my will, the vast majority of the party prefers to remain in opposition.

But Mr. Do you admit that there is a desire on the part of the party to join the Lula government? We have some parliamentarians, mainly from the Northeast, where Lula is stronger, who identify more with his project. But it does not reach 20%, 30% of these deputies in the Chamber.

Even so, there are members of the PP who hold positions in the government. The mayor, Arthur Lira (PP-AL), has nominees at Codevasf. And there is information about the PP demand by the Ministry of Health. How is there a demand of that size if it’s a minority wing? Let me explain, President Arthur’s situation is very similar to mine. We had positions within the Bolsonaro government. I don’t think there is any case of Arthur appointing anyone in this current government. What happened is that the government kept [os cargos]and even out of respect for Arthur, for the position he is in.

Same thing happened to me. The government, at the beginning, maintained several positions that I held, even going so far as to ask me if I would like to stop hitting [no governo] to retain these positions. I said that under no circumstances would I stop making opposition.

Members of the Lula government did this? He was. I had a board of Codevasf, [cargos] in the state of Piauí, and I was asked. If I wanted to keep these positions, I had to stop my criticism, I didn’t even need to support. And I said that these positions were embarrassing me, that I would like them all to be fired. I think with Arthur that’s it, the government maintained respect for the position he occupies.

Is there no incongruity between keeping the nominees and being in the opposition or not joining the government? In this case, no, because the positions are too small for Arthur — he has no relevant position. Arthur, if he wanted to have appointed a minister, he was sure the government would have delivered. He didn’t see fit to do that or didn’t tell me he was going to make that nomination.

And about the PP wanting the Ministry of Health… Look, I think it’s much more about speculation than… Arthur told me that he never made that claim to President Lula.

Don’t even intend to? Hope not.

If they make the nomination, how should the party position itself? This nomination will never be on behalf of the party. We would have to have an Executive meeting to define this, and the majority does not want this nomination. If it’s a personal statement from him [Lira], I don’t have veto power. But from the party I would definitely veto.

Mr. Were you contacted to have a conversation with President Lula? I was approached by intermediaries and I said that this conversation would not be convenient. I have a lot of respect and affection for President Lula, but it is logical that this conversation would be to try to get closer, to try to support him, and that will not happen under any circumstances. So there was no reason for it to happen. Zero chance of us being together with President Lula in this mandate. I believe that until the end of my days I will never join the PT.

This is strong for someone who was an ally of the Lula government in the past. I was, but I’ve always been a center-right person. In the past, we had a false center-right, which was the PSDB. And today you saw, with Geraldo’s union [Alckmin] with Lula, that they were very similar. Now, we have a very strong right wing and I am very proud to be part of it. I will never leave her. I have this role to play, of being one of the leaders of the right, of the center-right.

Is the fact that there is such a right wing what justifies the difficulties that the president has faced in articulating with Congress? The government’s position seems to be still juvenile, childish. I don’t understand how —it’s already the PT’s fifth government— they act in such a childish and disastrous way. It even looks like there’s a member of the opposition there at the Planalto Palace. It is Lula himself who has made absurd mistakes and was not prepared for this new moment in Brazilian politics. It’s no use blaming anyone.

What did mr. do you call juvenile? Make the ministerial composition trying to seek a base the way it was done in the Chamber of Deputies, mainly. The government today has a base there, delivering ministries, 140, 150 deputies. It’s impressive. Who is the base minister who has votes in the Chamber of Deputies? It’s a disaster. See today this stir with Daniela do Waguinho [ministra do Turismo]. How many votes does she have there?

What is the demand of parliamentarians? Is this caused by the end of rapporteur amendments? No. It was a new moment in politics, implemented by President Bolsonaro. The parties were much closer to the success of the government than to positions. Today, parliamentarians, unlike the time when Lula ruled the other time, are much more demanded by voters. We have two-thirds of Congress that have no government identification. This has influenced the government’s failure to compose the base.

But the Bolsonaro government also distributed positions. One or the other charge until you go there. But state, ministry, no.

Many parliamentarians link the government’s difficulty in forming the base at the end of amendments reporter. See that influence? I don’t think so, I think it’s more [o problema] of identification [com o governo]. Of course [as emendas] had influence. But, if that were the case, why would we hand over rapporteur amendments to the PT, as it happened? They were distributed to all parliamentarians of the National Congress. And they haven’t ended, no, take the commission amendments, go find the difference.

How will the PP position itself in relevant government matters? For example, the tax framework in the Senate. We are not going to vote against the framework, we are going to try to improve it to tighten the control of public accounts. As for the other matters, we will assess them on a case-by-case basis. We have a position of not being against everything.

The TSE judgment that could make Bolsonaro ineligible will be next week. What would be left of the right if that happens? If this injustice happens, the TSE will be creating an unprecedented political leader in history. Take away the right of a leader from 48% of the population [de disputar a eleição] is to victimize him and turn him into a leader who will be able to elect an unprecedented number of mayors and councilors next year. And their candidate will easily win the 2026 election.

Who should be a candidate? I don’t even know if President Bolsonaro would run for election [para presidente]. He has expressed to me more than once that he thinks about running for the Senate, sometimes he talks about not running at all. If he is not the candidate, he will choose. But politics has a queue, I think the number one is Governor Tarcísio. [Romeu] Zema [governador de Minas Gerais seria o número dois]have no doubt because of the size of your states.

What about former First Lady Michelle Bolsonaro? Must be a candidate for the Senate for Brasilia.

Did she ever say that? No, but from what I know of life, there is no chance of me making a mistake.

After the 8th of January, they found a draft of the coup in Anderson Torres’ house [ex-ministro da Justiça] and coup documents on the cell phone of Major Mauro Cid, who was Bolsonaro’s assistant. This indicates that the idea of ​​trying to invalidate the results of the elections was circulating. Mr. did you know about these joints? No, I never knew of any kind of joint. With so much evidence, I think it’s clear that some people thought that. But I have no doubt that President Bolsonaro, in no minute, neither authorized, nor guided, nor thought about this coup situation. Bolsonaro is a democrat. Until the last minute he thought he was going to win the vote.

Didn’t he then know what was in Cid’s cell phone, which he had with him the whole time? He says he has nothing to do with it. I’m sure he hasn’t. I defy it, I doubt there’s any message from Cid saying “look, here’s President, the draft of the coup act”; or “look, let’s do a coup”.

This is now the target of the CPMI. Cid was summoned. How will they act? I have no reason to defend Cid. I’m not condemning, but let him explain what’s on his cell phone, what his role is.

Do you believe that the president’s position of constantly questioning the validity of the election and the ballot box was what led to the 8th of January? January 8 has many culprits. I think this could be a factor, but the main culprit was the ineffectiveness of the forces that were supposed to protect the palaces and now we are seeing a general, who is the [ex-]head of the GSI, opening doors for troublemakers to enter.

Mr. endorsed the questioning speech at the polls. Regrets? You have the right to question any situation, I don’t see any problem. I fully trust the Brazilian electoral system, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be defrauded. Bolsonaro questioned whether there would be auditable votes and all that. But I didn’t see the president say there was fraud.

Did this speech contribute to the defeat of the president? I don’t know if it was, but I think we wasted time on that. We lost this election to ourselves. There were some errors in the communication of the pandemic, for example, Paulo Guedes contesting the issue of the minimum wage. That crazy Roberto Jefferson with that crazy Carla Zambelli going after a black man in downtown São Paulo. Some TSE decisions. Many things.

You preached the banner of a new policy, of no corruption, but Bolsonaro is the target of several investigations. This narrative of trying to tarnish the president’s image will not stick because people know that he is a good man, a serious man and a simple man. Then don’t stick to President Bolsonaro.

Ciro Nogueira, 54 years old

He holds a law degree from PUC (Pontifical Catholic University) in Rio de Janeiro. He was elected federal deputy for the first time in 1994 and served four terms in the Chamber. Senator for the second time, he chairs the PP. He was Minister of the Civil House of Jair Bolsonaro.