Wagner: ‘Lava Jato pulls military resistance to Lula’ – 02/07/2023 – Politics

Government leader Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva and former Minister of Defense, Senator Jaques Wagner (PT-BA) says that former President Jair Bolsonaro (PL) was responsible for the politicization of the Armed Forces, but attributes the resistance of the troops the PT also to what it calls the “brainwashing” of Operation Lava Jato.

“[Foi] this brainwashing that was done as a way to conquer power. That got a lot into the Forces. You see the expression of some: I will not salute a corrupt person. For me, the biggest broth is much less ideological and much more on top of that”, he says in an interview with Sheet.

The senator says that Lula now has confidence in Minister José Múcio (Defense) and in military commanders. He points out that it is necessary to take the Forces back to the “natural bed” provided for in the Constitution. “They are not guardians of Brazilian democracy.”

Wagner says that Lula must have more than the 49 votes in the Senate for the re-election of Rodrigo Pacheco (PSD-MG) – and that he must negotiate with parties that are currently outside the coalition, such as the PP and the Republicans.

The government leader also says that Lula may try to be re-elected in 2026, as the president has been suggesting, but considers that the statements are a way to avoid a “gold rush” between PT members and allies interested in the succession.

How will the president build his base? The election [para presidente do Senado] it cannot serve as a beacon for the base of government. It has particular characteristics, it doesn’t have a gradient that is normal in the subject approval game. The material enters, suffers criticism, suffers contributions and soon you have what is possible on a support basis.

So how big is the base and opposition in the Senate today? It will depend on the subject. The line of reasoning is not uniform by party. I think our base will be greater than 49. It will depend on the negotiation power, on the relationship that is built. You place great strength in President Lula’s capacity for dialogue.

In the PEC [da Transição], we had 64 votes. Is that the base number? Not necessarily. I’m just showing that, in two close episodes, the difference was big. In the election, those who voted for Rogério Marinho are not necessarily fans of the opposition. There were PT people who made this brilliant comment: “This shows that we will have difficulties”. It was a completely wrong reading.

PP, Republicans and PL will be in the opposition or in the gradient with whom can you talk? They declare themselves opposition. But I was also in the opposition in the government that ended and that doesn’t mean we didn’t sit down and negotiate. When, for example, the tax reform and the new fiscal framework arrive, there are no organized supporters. Everyone thinks that Brazil has to have a differentiated fiscal framework.

The formation of the base takes place in a negotiation for positions. Will parties like PP and Republicans and other wings of União Brasil be attended to? It is neither my nor the president’s practice to manage internal party issues. The União Brasil has internal differences, but the negotiation was made with a whole of the party, not a part. There was the episode of the leader [da União Brasil] in the camera [Elmar Nascimento (BA), vetado por petistas para o Ministério da Integração], which was not a ban on anyone. It was the question of how he treated the President of the Republic during [a campanha].

They exist conversations for Elmar Nascimento to indicate people for other posts. Mr. do you agree? I agree. I’m from Bahia, so maybe they can direct me [a responsabilidade pelo veto]. I have nothing to do with it. It was much more a question of posture during the campaign. This problem is not the government’s. It’s a problem of understanding between them.

President Lula said he was against a CPI to investigate the attacks from the 8th of January. What will the position of the base be? The Covid CPI was absolutely necessary because federal agencies did not act as they should. On the January 8 episode, the idea of ​​a CPI came up. It was inevitable that everyone signed because that thing shocked Brazil. But, today, what would be the role of the CPI? How effective is it if people are already arrested, investigated, prosecuted? I see no use. So have no fear. What we are not interested in is taking the focus off Congress and the economy.

If there is a CPI, can the government control the commission? Or are you going to try to prevent the CPI from working by not nominating the members? You can’t expect me to tell you which strategy we’re going to use [risos]. To me it does not matter. The opposition will always want to hit. I find it strange because, in fact, the core of what happened is the former president’s posture [Jair Bolsonaro]. Who was it that planted the conflict between the Powers? So, for me, it doesn’t matter whether there is a majority or not having a signature or not being present so as not to have a session.

In the campaign, Lula said he would not run for re-election, but now admits the possibility. Should he be a candidate in 2026? It’s hard to say now, it’s too early. It depends on several things. First, it fundamentally depends on his will. For someone who is in power, saying that he is giving up is not the best thing. Because there begins the dispute of who is the successor [risos].

Does he talk about the possibility of re-election to stop an internal dispute? I don’t know if he talks to it, but it has that effect. I am convinced that he will do very well and that he can be re-elected or have a successor. In my opinion, he preferred to leave it on stand by [modo de espera] for two things: not to give up power and also not to start a gold rush.

Looking at the government alliance, what are the alternatives? The people who are in the picture today, it will depend on their path. I’ll give you an example of what I experienced: Dilma [Rousseff] it was never one of those that were disputing place. But, in the Civil House, she played a role that pleased the president and ended up being chosen.

It is a function similar to the one that the president delegates to Minister Rui Costa now. I didn’t say to have this comparison. It is evident that he is a person who will be among those with possibility. If you want me to list names, there’s Camilo [Santana, ministro da Educação]has Wellington [Dias, ministro do Desenvolvimento Social]has Flávio Dino [ministro da Justiça]. Have the vice president [Geraldo Alckmin]. It will depend a lot on the delivery of each one. If the guy shines, inevitably there will be recognition.

If I can make a recommendation to those who intend: don’t intend so much, so long before the election. Anyone who puts their face to the point will end up wearing out. I forgot to talk about [ministro da Fazenda, Fernando] Haddad, of course, who was once a candidate. Name has plenty.

Mr. Do you see Minister Simone Tebet in the photo? She’s definitely in a picture. I don’t know if she would be a candidate for that group. She is minister in recognition of her correct and courageous stance in the second round. She was a candidate fighting for another government program. If she can become the group’s candidate, it’s her decision, her party and the group as a whole.

As a former defense minister, what assessment does Mr. makes of the troubled beginning of the president’s relationship with the Armed Forces? Does Lula trust the military? He has confidence in the Minister of Defense [José Múcio] and the military leaders who are there. He believes a lot in the Armed Forces with a function of the State, and his dream is that people return to the natural bed of the Armed Forces, which have their constitutional mission.

In those four years, the Forces were led by a Commander-in-Chief [o ex-presidente da República] who had a completely unconstitutional stance, trying to politicize the Armed Forces, ideologize the Armed Forces. Current military leaders have this understanding that it is necessary to return to the natural bed.

It’s not a hobby horse you’re going to give. Four years have passed with a doctrine that is outside the constitutional text. What you need is to go back to the constitutional text. They are not guardians of Brazilian democracy.

Múcio was criticized by some members of the government for having adopted an overly appeasing posture, especially regarding the issue of the encampment in front of the Army. Was the behavior he adopted correct? When he saw that there was a deviation, he suggested changing the commander [do Exército]. The episode of the concentration in front of the headquarters is an anomaly, there is no reason for that to happen.

Was it the minister who suggested to the president that the commander be fired? Surely, Minister Múcio must have felt that there was no more space for coexistence. So he ended up coming up with another name. All three of the oldest who were on the list could have been picked in the first hour.

Minister Múcio preferred to maintain a logic of antiquity, so he took the three oldest. When I was Minister of Defense, I interviewed the three oldest [de cada Força]. The Army was the third, which was the [Eduardo] Villas Boas. O [Eduardo] loyal [Ferreira] was the second in the Navy, and the [Nivaldo] Rossato was the first of the Air Force.

Many people attribute to Villas Bôas the departure of the Armed Forces from this “natural bed”. Mr. Do you regret choosing him? I do not agree. I think the one who took her out of bed was the [ex-]President.

But there was the tweet from Villas Bôas [sobre um julgamento de Lula no STF em 2018]. It is a punctual episode, outside of what was his role. I don’t want to pass judgment. While I was at the head of the Ministry of Defense, he was always a very good person in dealing with me, he was a very competent leader, he always had leadership over the troops.

An Army commander is always trying to mediate positions of some more radicalized segments. I don’t think he pulled. I think that, in fact, there is something little talked about. Who helped a lot with this whole question [da politização] inside the Forces was unfortunately the madness of Lava Jato and the coverage of segments of the media that wanted to criminalize the PT and President Lula.

Did that get into the troops? Total. That, to me, is a bigger problem that happened within the services. The Forces’ relationship with President Lula was the phase of greatest technical, professional and salary recognition of the Forces.

What happened? As the bulk of the Forces come from the middle class and value honesty, insofar as it was bombed… No matter how much the process has been annulled, everything proven, there will be people who will say that President Lula is a thief, It is corrupt. They went through the guy’s life from top to bottom. As far as I know, they didn’t find any hidden assets, foreign accounts, nothing like that. But they keep calling.

[Foi] this brainwashing that was done as a way to conquer power. That got a lot into the Forces. You see the expression of some: I will not salute a corrupt person. For me, the larger broth is much less ideological and much more on top of that. This I heard from people inside.

The main name of Lava Jato, the former judge Sergio Moro, became his Senate colleague. How will this relationship be? I have to respect him out of respect for the people who decided to vote for him. I already greeted and welcomed. I will try to deal within the standard of civility that is typical of the Senate. Obviously there will be a clash of ideas, but nobody here is going to come out with a punch or offense, I hope [risos].

X-RAY

Jacques Wagner, 71
Senator for the PT, he is leader of the government in the Senate and a friend of Lula. He was Minister of Labor and Institutional Relations in the Lula governments, Minister of Defense and the Civil House in the Dilma Rousseff government and governor of Bahia.