We are in a transformative reconstruction process, says Guilherme Mello – 05/19/2023 – Policies and Justice

In this interview, economist Guilherme Mello presents the main progress made by the Lula government, discusses some social challenges and draws attention to the racial agenda.

Guilherme Mello, what are you most proud of being Brazilian? I am deeply happy to be Brazilian. Perhaps what makes me most proud of Brazil is our culture in its broadest sense. The adaptability and creativity of the Brazilian people is impressive. I usually say that a country that spawned Machado de Assis, Tom Jobim, Vinicius de Moraes, Oscar Niemeyer, Maria Bethânia and many others cannot go wrong.

What saddens you most about our country? Realize that Brazil remains one of the most unequal countries in the world. To a large extent this is part of the still unsurpassed legacy of slavery, combined with the appropriation of the state by minority sectors of society.

Our biggest challenge as a nation is to overcome these legacies once and for all, democratize the State and reduce inequality, recovering the path of development with social and environmental sustainability.

How has the experience of leaving academia to contribute to government been? Challenging and stimulating. My academic background, combined with participation in the current debate, as well as the experience I acquired in building government programs and in the transition team, helped to draw a map of the main economic challenges. Now I am having the pleasant opportunity to deepen each of these themes and contribute to the formulation of public policies.

However, day-to-day life within government is quite different from academia. There isn’t much time for reflection, the speed and intensity of work at the Farm is impressive. What facilitates the adaptation process is that the team at the Ministry of Finance is very competent, committed and the work environment is excellent.

How do you evaluate the beginning of the current government? What has been the main progress so far and where do we need to move faster? I think that in four months the new Lula government has already delivered more political and social advances than we have seen in the last several years. Just to mention two examples: the minimum wage will have a new real increase, something that has not occurred on average in the last 6 years; and the IRPF table will be readjusted so that those who earn up to two minimum wages do not pay income tax, something that has not happened since 2016.

Another fundamental point was the resumption of social policies dismantled in recent governments: the new Bolsa Família, the new Minha Casa Minha Vida, the new Mais Médicos, the new Food Acquisition Plan and many other projects that are being resumed in an improved way in relation to the past.

It is a transforming reconstruction process, which does not seek to return to the past, but to build the conditions for the future. There is still much to be done and I am convinced that the fruits will be reaped soon, with long-term positive effects for our society.

In an interview for the “Politics and Justice” space, economist Elena Landau criticized the government saying it is dismantling institutional reforms that worked and cited the case of the state-owned law and the sanitation framework. what do you think about? There is no dismantling of reforms, only the search to promote improvements to what was approved in the past, preserving advances, but correcting any distortions. There is no law that cannot be improved or revised, once elements that are not adequate to the objectives of the legislation are identified.

With regard to social challenges, what public policies would need more attention? Brazil is back on the hunger map and this is not acceptable. Combating hunger, poverty and misery are certainly challenges that the new Lula government will face and overcome, just as it did in its first two terms. To this end, in addition to well-designed income transfer programs —such as the new Bolsa Família—, we will also have programs aimed at producing healthy food and strengthening family farming, with the aim of increasing production, food quality and reduce the price of these products.

In addition, there is a set of public policies that represent indirect income for people and that need special attention from the government. I highlight the need to improve the quality of education, particularly in secondary education, as well as the expansion of training and professional qualification. In health, the recovery of vaccine coverage lost in the last government and the expansion of the network of specialists and exams seem to me to be good examples of the challenges that will need to be faced in this new administration.

Recent empirical literature has highlighted the limits of education in promoting greater equality of opportunity. Social capital and discrimination, for example, play a not insignificant role in the results achieved in people’s lives. In this context, how to generate greater integration in a segregated society? The plague of slavery is still very strong in Brazil. Racism here is structural and access to education is just one element in promoting social integration. In any case, I believe that the quota law was a huge civilizational advance in Brazil, not only for democratizing access to knowledge production spaces, but for making coexistence and integration possible, the construction of social bonds that were absent in those public spaces. .

On March 21, Minister Esther Dweck announced that there will be a minimum participation of 30% of positions in commission and positions of trust for black people by 2025. A Working Group was also created to improve Law 12990/14, which provided for the allocation of 20% of vacancies in public tenders to black people. The inequality agenda is at the center of this new government’s concern and the issue of discrimination is certainly something that limits the promotion of equality, therefore it should be the target of specific public policies.

How far do you think individual and collective responsibility goes for the results achieved by Brazilians? Margaret Thatcher said that “there is no such thing as society, what exists are individuals”. In reality what happens is the opposite: there is no individual outside society. It is evident that all
we have our individuality and our distinctive characteristics, but we are formed and molded by our social environment. Our values, our beliefs, our customs and our culture are all formed in the process of social interaction, whether in family, school, church or with friends.

Therefore, I believe that true freedom lies in having effective conditions to realize our potential and individual abilities. As a rule, the construction of these conditions is social, not individual. Being born in Moema or Capão Redondo makes a lot of difference in the conditions that an individual will have to develop their abilities. This enormous distance from the “starting point” needs to be corrected so that the results achieved are more the fruit of individual effort and competence than of monetary, social or cultural heritage.

You are a professor at Unicamp, a university that represents one of the examples of inclusion in the country. How do you evaluate the quota policy in higher education? As I said, I consider the university quota policy to be one of the great civilizing advances in the country. It is not just a question of repairing the past, but of building the future. Every assessment of the quota policy demonstrates its success not only in diversifying spaces for building knowledge, but also in bringing academic results closer to quota holders and non-quota holders. That fear, the result of prejudice, that the university would “lose quality” due to the adoption of the quota policy proved false and everything indicates that the quality of universities has increased thanks to the greater diversity of origins and experiences that we find today in these social spaces.

Do you think we should expand it? For example, for postgraduate students and university faculty? At the Institute of Economics at Unicamp, where I am a professor, we have already adopted quotas for postgraduate black and brown students. We were one of the pioneers in the area of ​​economics to adopt this policy, which has shown good results. We also have the indigenous entrance exam at graduation, which requires everyone to make an effort to adapt to a new social and cultural reality, but it has proven to be very enriching.

In 2021, the quota policy for hiring black employees was implemented and, this year, a quota format for hiring black teachers was just approved. These are important advances in overcoming inequalities.

You work in an environment that is predominantly white and male. Does this affect you in any way? Do you miss greater diversity in the places you frequents? It certainly does. I grew up in white, male, and predominantly heterosexual environments, which normalized the culture in those environments in my perception of the world. When a white man walks into a business meeting with 20 other white men, he hardly realizes that there is something profoundly wrong with it. For him, this absolute disparity is “normal”.

The effort to deconstruct this “normosis of inequality” is ongoing and cannot remain just in discourse. At Fazenda, we have seen an effort by the minister and the entire team to ensure greater diversity in our ministry. When I took over SPE, I tried to build a more diverse environment and today we have a female majority, in addition to a relatively young team. I realize that this creates a more harmonious, supportive and functional work environment. The effort now is also to expand racial diversity, which still needs to advance further in all public services.

This is perhaps the most important moment of the interview: I would like to know a little more about your taste in music. Are there any songs that are moving you right now? Do you have a favorite style of music? More than style, I think I have a musical period that I identify with deeply, which is the 1950s/60s. Through my father’s influence, I’m a fan of rock’n’roll from that period, as well as the country, blues and gospel that gave birth to rock. To this day I listen to a lot of Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash, Roy Orbison, Chucky Berry and Little Richard. Perhaps my biggest musical idol is Jerry Lee Lewis, who got me to learn to play the piano — and recognize my lack of artistic talent.

As a result of my mother’s influence, I am passionate about MPB, with special emphasis on samba and Bossa Nova. Tom, Vinicius, Bethânia, Gal, Gil, Chico and Caetano are always on my radio. João Gilberto is perhaps the artist I have listened to the most for many years. In these weeks, I’m in love with the song “Rei sem Coroa”, a song by Francisco Alves that João played in a recently released show at Sesc-SP in 1998. João Gilberto’s version is of a unique beauty, which only culture and music Brazilian could create.

Finally, would you like to leave a message of hope for our readers? In recent years Brazil has suffered setbacks that we could not imagine even in our worst nightmares. It felt like our country had failed. But, as our late Abujamra used to say, success and failure are two imposters. I prefer, as Chico Buarque says in the song “Que tal um samba?”

I don’t like personifications, but if anyone sums up the concept of hope in Brazil, it’s Lula. A poor and hungry migrant, who becomes a worker, union leader, founder of the largest leftist party in the Americas and the highest rated president in the history of Brazil. Then he is persecuted and unjustly arrested, only to prove his innocence and defeat his tormentors at the polls, ridding Brazil of a disastrous government that threatened to perpetuate itself in power. Those who have Lula and Chico Buarque will always have hope.

The editor, Michael França, asks each participant of the space “Politics and Justice” of the Sheet suggest a song to the readers. In this text, the one chosen by Guilherme Mello was “King without a crown”, by “João Gilberto”.