Young people will not let go of the abuses committed by past generations – 07/14/2023 – Policies and Justice

From an underprivileged background to a researcher of great national and international prestige, in this interview, Hedibert Lopes details the challenges he faced on his journey, suggests public policies to deal with our deep social divide and presents his perspectives in relation to the challenges of Brazilian society.

Hedibert Lopes, what are you most proud of being Brazilian?

First of all, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to share with you, your readers and followers a little of my academic-scientific trajectory and the paths taken by a boy who lived and did all of his elementary education at the Raul Pederneiras Municipal School in Cidade Alta community, in Rio de Janeiro, back in the late 1970s and early 1980s. What makes me most proud of being Brazilian is having had the opportunity to be influenced by, and lately also influence, a lot of people hardworking, humble and supportive coming from all directions. This voluntary exchange, without monetary interests or other benefits, and which helps the most deprived classes to continue the fight, is what makes me proud of Brazil. And, of course, Brazilian music in general and samba in particular.

What saddens you most about our country?
The perception that very few members of the already tiny ruling class have so much power and no interest in changing this well of inequality that we have been experiencing for decades. The precarious work of the majority of black women, almost all heads of families, and the difficulty in providing high quality basic education for our children are two sad realities that slap me daily.

How do you rate the current government?
I have many criticisms of the current Lula government, for whom I have voted whenever I could, since his first presidential election. However, there is still no time to compare with your other presidencies That said, I am very hopeful about the choices for the economy, education and human rights, themes completely abandoned between 2019 and 2022. Making a shallow analogy, for me the current administration is the one paramedic who even in the ambulance resuscitates you and keeps you alive until you arrive at the hospital. Who will be there waiting for you to continue the care will only be relevant if the patient arrives alive Under the last (bad) administration, we almost died of a heart attack on the couch in the living room.

Regarding social challenges, how do you evaluate Brazilian social mobility?

We have almost no social mobility in Brazil. How many other poor kids like you or me that today circulate among us do you know? It shouldn’t be one in every 10,000 poor young people to get to where I am. We run 800 meters with hurdles against “athletes” running 800 meters. The biggest challenge is to better structure collective care during early childhood, elementary school and high school for our young people, with a part of the latter being technical. Keeping children fed and in school for at least 15 years is, in my view, task number zero.

In 2017, you wrote a text for the Valor Econômico newspaper criticizing the World Bank’s numbers regarding the estimate of tuition fees charged in public higher education. At the time, you argued that tuition fees would do little to reduce the budget and deal with inequalities in public higher education. In the end, you defended the quota policy. Do you think we should expand it to postgraduate and university faculty? What public policies would be necessary to move towards a fairer country with greater opportunities?

Better basic education, from kindergarten to the end of high school, with food, vaccinations and routine. In addition to inserting high school students into parallel advanced learning programs (whether technical or academic). I also believe that it would be essential to extend the policy of quotas to postgraduate courses and to admit employees and professors at federal and state public universities. The presence, in these environments, of more blacks and browns, indigenous peoples and representatives of different minorities will bring new and important demands and lessons, in addition to serving as motivation and a model for young people who are currently underrepresented. It would reduce, I believe, the most varied bubbles in which we find ourselves comfortably Obviously, a range of initiatives has appeared and solidified in the last two decades, however it is necessary to make them scalable to the Brazilian dimensions, without neglecting the regional singularities of our continental country . I would like to close by emphasizing that the criticism that by creating quotas we are lowering the level of professors/researchers seems fallacious. This same argument was used against quotas for students and has since gone down the drain. I am convinced that it will also go downhill because I do not believe that the faculty and staff we have today are the epitome of what we could have in Brazil. I believe we have a good bit of “fat” to burn before saying that we are becoming less efficient in hiring.

You had a disadvantaged socioeconomic background, however, today you are a researcher with an international reputation. How was that process? What were your biggest challenges?

It was a long process, of early maturation, living with the scarcity of financial, didactic, cultural, time resources and, perhaps more importantly, without the slightest chance of faltering throughout the process because second chances do not exist for the lesser privileged. There are several latent disincentives competing in parallel to obstruct you and convince you of your inability, that you don’t belong there and, in a cold and cruel way, guide you down paths that end in precarious jobs, limited benefits and the impossibility of any progression or social mobility. There were several challenges, but studying (preparatory course plus graduation) from 7 am to 5 pm and then working between 6 pm and midnight as a data imputer was the second most challenging test. While working at night to help raise a daughter (yes, I was a very young father; my daughter was born at the beginning of the 2nd year of my graduation, in 1988), I saw my colleagues going to computer courses, swimming, music. But studying at UFRJ was the watershed in this process. Inclusion opened doors for me through scientific initiation scholarships, then master’s scholarships and finally doctoral scholarships abroad. Another big challenge, and one that I think is important to talk about to younger people who are less favored and who attend the best universities, is the intimidating and paralyzing power that affects us because we think we are smaller, inferior. This psychological effort consumes a good part of what would be very useful to study more, do more “networking”, in short, learn more. Even today, even after almost four decades, a cloud full of fears and insecurities still hangs over my head, and in times of more stress and professional challenges. So what’s the most challenging first test? Staying away from my daughter for three years, from age 8 to age 11, to do her doctorate in the US to give her a better future. That was and still is my biggest pain, my biggest guilt. But I am privileged because she stayed with her very attentive and loving mother and with the ever-present grandparents, my parents. Privileged even more when I realize that if it were my wife, my already slim chances of succeeding would practically dwindle to zero.

Recent empirical literature has highlighted the limits of education in promoting greater equality of opportunity. Social capital and discrimination, for example, play a not insignificant role in the results achieved in people’s lives. In this context, how to generate greater integration in a segregated society?

I really don’t believe that expecting altruism from the tiny fraction of decision makers who embrace more than 50% of our wealth is an option. I believe in university quotas as a way to mitigate centuries-old problems we have, but I also believe that the transfer of resources from the wealthiest to the poorest via education, food and health is the only way that these public policies will have real, visible and permanent effects. Without this, we are doomed to social immobility and to a society with many extremely poor people and a few very rich people. For example, it doesn’t make sense for a Pix to be instantly transferred, while the single ticket can take up to 72 hours to recharge.

How far do you think individual and collective responsibility goes for the results achieved by Brazilians?

We need public policies that help young adults reach their individual best. As things are, unfortunately, young people bump their heads and feel left out and hopeless, and end up clinging to whatever is closest. And the closest one invariably explores the potential of each one less. The collective is the aggregating, motivating agent that guides the masses, but each one owns his own horizon and path. The results we currently achieve are meager and successive generations are being scrapped.

Given your extensive international experience, how do you see diversity in American and Brazilian universities?

American universities are, in general, very concerned about the diversity of their students, both undergraduate and graduate, and their faculty. In all the faculty hiring and/or student acceptance committees that I participated in, both at the University of Chicago and at Arizona State University, the concern to see minorities in the candidate group was almost mandatory. This is one of my motivations for imagining how beneficial a quota system for professors/researchers would be for public universities as well.

Now it’s time to talk about music. I heard you had a musical group called “Instrumental Variables” that rocked the University of Chicago Booth School of Business parties. That’s right? Were the parties good? How was the group created and where did the name come from?

In fact, the little parties held at 5825 South Dorchester Avenue, in Hyde Park, were an opportunity for young professors, doctoral students and the like, generally Latin Americans, to relax. Me (tantam), Rafael (ukulele) and Diniz (voice) initially, plus Bárbara (voice) and Marcos (guitar), and occasionally Daniel (voice), always ended the nights in anthological samba circles. “The Instrumental Variables” was a joke of mine and it stuck, after all, most of us were PhD students in economics. The best parties were the ones that took place during the 2006 world cup. In some games, I counted 45 people in the apartment (which had a patio where we used to have the famous Volnei barbecue). My petty moment was banning the French on the day of the France game, but as the French say “cést la vie!” or the Americans “what the heck!”. Of those times, the best thing was to have met Maria, my partner in everything since then.

Are there any songs that are moving you right now? Do you have a favorite style of music?

We recently went to the Titãs show and the tribute to Ney Matogrosso. Despite the differences between them, “Bichos Escrotos” and “Por Debaixo dos Panos” are two songs that can’t get out of my head recently. “Volver A Los 17” sung by Violeta Parra also moves me because of the difficulties faced by Latin countries and the potential that we all have.

Finally, would you like to leave a message of hope for our readers?

Ever! As an educator, I always try to look through the lens of the new generations. I see a generation full of conflicts, like all others, but also one that will no longer let go of the abuses that my generation suffered and caused. Where they see immediacy in young people, I also see little patience for fuss. I hope to see a generation that is truly multidisciplinary, multifaceted and less burdened with preconceptions. And I’m hopeful that some are Bayesians, like me.

The editor, Michael França, asks each participant of the space “Politics and Justice” of the Sheet suggest a song to the readers. In this text, the one chosen by Hedibert Freitas Lopes was “Esperanças Perdidas”, from Os Originais do Samba.